- Part 1: top-tier graduates
- Part 2: 1-2 year PQE top-tier and mid-tier/boutique
- Part 3: mid-tier and boutique graduates
Let’s be clear that this ‘survey’ is a statistically shambolic, disorganised, completely unscientific series of posts. Don’t read too much into the numbers, which (beyond some basic error checking) we haven’t vetted much at all. The purpose of this series of posts is merely to put information out there, in the hope that some of the myths will be dispelled and you will (from the sum of responses) have an idea of roughly how your salary compares to others. Obviously, the data in the survey is given to us anonymously — quite possibly by persons who have an interest in deflating the competition (or just messing with us) — and we are unable to verify any of it. To preserve anonymity, we also don’t name the firm in some cases (usually because we’ve been asked not to), but try to give a general idea of where it sits in the market.
Next week, in our final instalment, we’ll cover support staff and partners.
Without further ado, let’s see some numbers. This week we look at more senior lawyers, from 3 year PQE all the way up to senior and managing associates. Does the top-tier to mid-tier pay gap widen? Find out after the break.
Shown in the tables below are the gross salary, bonus, billable targets and ‘vibe’ of each firm. Also shown are the number of tipsters, so you can see how reliable the figure is likely to be. Mid-tier and boutique firms have unsurprisingly yielded fewer responses, so take the figures with a grain of salt and, as always, use your own judgement before complaining to your supervising partner that X is being paid more than you.
Associates, 3 years PQE
| Firm Name | # Tips | Gross Salary | Bonus? | Billable hrs | Rating | Vibes |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Allens Arthur Robinson (WA) | 1 | $80,000 | No | 7 | 2/10 | Sad – bullies |
| Allens Arthur Robinson (NSW) | 1 | $127,500 (top performer) | Yes, $20,050 cash | 6.5 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Allens Arthur Robinson (VIC) | 1 | $100,000 | No | 6.25 | 5/10 | Happy |
| Blake Dawson (VIC) | 1 | $140,000 (up from $90k) | (not yet known) | 6.5 | 9/10 | Happy |
| Boutique firm (VIC) | 1 | $98,000 (up from $90k) | (not yet known) | 4 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Boutique firm (NSW) | 1 | $108,000 | No | 5.5 | 7/10 | Good |
| Boutique firm (NSW) | 1 | $95,000 | Yes, $3000 cash | 6.5 | 8/10 | Sad – bullies |
| Boutique firm (VIC) | 1 | $102,500 | No | 5.5 | 7/10 | Okay |
| Boutique com lit (QLD) | 1 | $101,000 | No | 6.5 | 9/10 | Good |
| Boutique com lit (QLD) | 1 | $109,000 | No | 6.5 | 9/10 | Happy |
| Boutique firm (NSW) | 1 | $120,000 | No | 6 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Boutique firm spin off (NSW) | 1 | $95,000 | No | 6 | 8/10 | Okay |
| Clayton Utz (VIC) | 1 | $105,000 | No | 7 | 1/10 | Poor |
| Clifford Chance (NSW) | 1 | $100,000 | No | 7.5+ | 1/10 | Wankers |
| Corrs Chambers Westgarth (NSW) | 1 | $120,500 | No | 7 | 9/10 | Great |
| Mid-tier (NSW) | 1 | $90,000 | No | 6.5 | 4/10 | Meh |
| Mid-tier (QLD) | 1 | $78,000 | No | 5 | 4/10 | Meh |
| DLA Piper (QLD) | 1 | $103,550 | No | 6.5 | 9/10 | Happy |
| DLA Piper (VIC) | 1 | $111,000 | No | 6.5 | 8/10 | Okay |
| Freehills (QLD) | 1 | $115,000 | Yes, $15,000 cash | 6.5 | 8/10 | Leaving |
| Freehills (NSW) | 1 | $110,000 | No | 6.5 | 6/10 | Okay |
| Freehills (WA) | 1 | $115,000 | Yes, $7500 cash | 7.5 | 5/10 | Okay |
| Gadens (NSW) | 1 | $95,000 | No | 6 | 8/10 | Good |
| Gadens (NSW) (Special Counsel?) | 1 | $170,000 | No | 6 | 10/10 | Happy |
| General suburban (WA) | 1 | $103,000 | No | 6.75 | 6/10 | Time for a change |
| Mallesons Stephen Jaques (NSW) | 1 | $114,000 | Yes, $9000 cash | 7 | 6/10 | Time for a change |
| Mallesons Stephen Jaques (VIC) | 2 | $105,000, $93,800 | $8200 / $0 | 7 | 7/10 | Stressed |
| Mallesons Stephen Jaques (QLD) | 1 | $165,000 | Yes, $17,000 | 7 | 6/10 | Sweat shop |
| Middletons (NSW) | 1 | $110,000 | No | 6 | 6/10 | Mismanaged |
| Minter Ellison (VIC) | 1 | $110,000 | No | 7 | 7/10 | Okay |
| Moray & Agnew (NSW) | 1 | $110,000 | No | 6.5 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Norton Rose (QLD) | 1 | $100,000 | No | 6.5 | 9/10 | Happy |
| Norton Rose (NSW) | 2 | $140,000, $114,000 | $40,000/$0 | 7 | 7/10 | Okay |
| PwC Legal (NSW) | 1 | $104,000 | Yes, $4500 | 6 | 6/10 | Time for a change |
| Sparke Helmore (NSW) | 1 | $80,000 | No | 7 | 2/10 | Dislike |
| Mid-tier (NSW) | 1 | $100,000 | No | 7.5+ | 1/10 | Sad – nightmare |
Choice selection of 3-4PQE comments:
Allens WA: “appalling management in perth office, rampant bullying from partners”
Allens NSW: “I find that, despite the adverse commentary on this site, AAR has treated me very well. I find the partners that I work with to be pleasant and intelligent people. I find the workplace collegial. I find the remuneration I have received to be generous. I find the level of autonomy that I have been given in the work that I do to be good (nothing beats not being micromanaged and being left to make your own decisions most of the time). I generally feel happy about going to work.”
[FS: It's always good to hear positive things about a firm.]
Boutique NSW: “The partners are not obsessed with how many billable hours you do and only really mention it once a year at review time. Everyone there is a good lawyer that I can learn a lot from. Mostly everyone is nice. There is one senior person there who is obnoxious and is responsible for the turnover of juniors. I believe the partners are aware of this but choose not to do anything about him.”
Boutique NSW: “Sometimes it’s nice to simply have more people around you than in a small/specialist firm; variety as the spice of life and all that.”
Clutz VIC: “Constant beating of chests amongst certain senior partners well past their prime (this is well reflected in the poor work brought in) makes one wonder why one bothers to make the effort.”
Corrs NSW: “Good quality work; Reasonable partners – not perfect but not evil; Not much mentoring; Firm is super tight,no biscuits, hardly any food at drinks, no Christmas presents etc”
Freehills: “They have 18 weeks paid maternity leave which is great, especially because you become eligible after only one year’s service. I do think they genuinely try to make things easier for women who want to have a family and still achieve success in their careers. Apart from that it’s the same as any other big firm, you work really hard to line the partners’ pockets. ”
Mallies QLD: “Pay jump has been great this year because half the team has left. Same old Mallies story – 18 hour days and work taking over everything in your life.”
Norton Rose NSW: “There’s real momentum and buzz at Norton Rose – you can feel it in the air and in the nature and quality of the work that we’re doing. Generally, compared to a lot of other firms around town, it strikes the right balance between high quality work and maintaining a life away from the office. The whole self-improvement vibe ripples through the entire firm, from support staff, to lawyers to senior partners.”
Watson Mangioni: “Somehow managing to be placed under a complete nightmare of a partner/human.m This makes me beyond sad.”
On to the old hacks…
Senior Associates, Special Counsel, In-house
| Firm Name | # Tips | Gross Salary | Bonus? | Billable hrs | Rating | Vibes |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Allens Arthur Robinson (NSW) | 1 | $200,000 | No | 7.5+ | 4/10 | Meh – people |
| Allens Arthur Robinson (VIC) (7 PQE) | 1 | $207,000 | No | 7.5 | 5/10 | Mismanaged |
| Allen & Overy (NSW) | 1 | $150,000 | Yes, $15,000 cash | 7.5 | 8/10 | Time for a change |
| Baker & McKenzie (VIC) | 1 | $165,000 | Yes, $12,500 cash | 6.5 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Blake Dawson (VIC) | 1 | $220,000 | Yes, $31,000 cash | 6.5 | 6/10 | Sad – crippling workload |
| Blake Dawson (NSW) | 1 | $230,000 | Yes, $25,000 cash | 6.5 | 2/10 | Wants more money |
| Black Dawson (VIC) (5 PQE) | 1 | $140,000 | Yes, $7000 cash | 6.5 | 5/10 | Time for a change |
| Boutique (VIC) | 1 | $98,000 | No | 4 | 7/10 | Okay – good hours |
| Boutique firm (WA) | 1 | $120,000 | No | - | - | - |
| Boutique firm (QLD, 10+ PQE) | 1 | $135,000 | No | 6.5 | 8/10 | Good |
| Boutique firm (VIC) | 1 | $102,500 | No but eligible, $0 | 5.5 | 7/10 | Wants more money |
| Clayton Utz (QLD, 10+ PQE) | 1 | $190,000 | No | 7 | 1/10 | Sad – horrible |
| Clayton Utz (QLD) (4 PQE) | 2 | $145,000 | Yes, $5000 cash | 7 | 7/10 | Mismanaged |
| Carter Newell (QLD) | 1 | $141,000 | No | 7 | 5/10 | Okay |
| Corrs Chambers Westgarth (NSW, 10+ PQE) | 2 | $240,000 | Yes, $15,000 cash | 7 | 8/10 | Good |
| Corrs Chambers Westgarth (VIC) | 1 | $142,500 | Yes, $5,200 cash | 6.5 | 6/10 | Time for a change |
| DLA Piper (VIC) | 2 | $150,000 | Yes, $10,000 cash | 6.5 | 7/10 | Time for a change |
| DLA Piper (NSW) | 1 | $168,000 | No | - | - | - |
| Deloitte Legal | 1 | $230,000 | No | 6 | 4/10 | Unhappy – mismanaged |
| Freehills (VIC) | 1 | $192,000 | Yes, $20,000 | 7.5 | 5/10 | Time for a change |
| Freehills (NSW) | 1 | $225,000 | Yes, $10,000 cash | 7.5 | - | Wants more money |
| Freehills (NSW) | 1 | $185,000 | No | 7.5 | 8/10 | Good |
| Gilbert + Tobin (NSW) | 1 | $188,000 | No | 7 | 3/10 | Sucks |
| Gilbert + Tobin (NSW) | 1 | $210,000 | Yes, $50,000 cash | 7 | 9/10 | Happy |
| Holding Redlich (NSW) | 1 | $125,000 | No | 6.5 | 5/10 | Unhappy – mismanaged |
| In-house (VIC) | 1 | $115,000 | No | 0 | 6/10 | Cheap |
| In-house (VIC) (General Counsel) | 1 | $235,000 | Yes, $270,000 (?) | 0 | - | - |
| In-house (NSW) (Special Counsel) | 1 | $230,000 | Yes, $45,000, cash and share | 0 | 9/10 | Happy |
| Mallesons Stephen Jaques (WA) (9 PQE) | 1 | $200,000 | No | 7.5+ | 1/10 | Wants more money |
| Mallesons Stephen Jaques (NSW) | 2 | $138,000, $135,000 | No | 7 | 5/10 | Over-managed |
| Mallesons Stephen Jaques (VIC) (7 PQE) | 1 | $176,000, $192,000 | $0 / $20,000 | 7.5 | 10/10 | Work-life issues |
| Macpherson + Kelly (VIC) (7 PQE) | 1 | $175,000 | Yes, $25,000 cash | 6 | 9/10 | Meh – Firm structure |
| Minter Ellison (VIC) (2 PQE ?) | 1 | $125,000 | No | 5.5 | 6/10 | Happy |
| Mid-tier (QLD) | 1 | $136,000 | No | 7.5 | 7/10 | Good |
| Mid-tier (NSW) | 1 | $104,000 | TBC, cash | 6.5 | 7/10 | Meh |
| Mid-tier (WA) (10+ PQE) | 1 | $235,000 | Yes, $50,000 | 5.25 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Maddocks (NSW) (9 PQE) | 1 | $225,000 | No | 6.5 | 4/10 | Okay |
| Suburban firm (VIC) | 1 | $75,000 | No | 7.5 | 1/10 | Wants more money |
| Minter Ellison (ACT) | 1 | $181,000 | No | 7 | 6/10 | Eccentric |
| Norton Rose (QLD) | 1 | $145,000 | No | 6.75 | 9/10 | Wants more money |
| Boutique firm (NSW) | 1 | $120,000 | No | 6 | 8/10 | Good |
| Mid-tier (NSW) | 1 | $90,000 | No | 6.5 | 4/10 | Heavy-handed |
| Middletons (VIC) (5 PQE) | 1 | $145,000 | Yes, $5000 cash | 6.5 | 4/10 | Wants more money |
| Boutique (NSW) (3 PQE) | 1 | $160,000 | No | 7 | 9/10 | Happy |
| In-house (VIC) (10 PQE) | 1 | $200,000 | No | 0 | 6/10 | Time for a change |
| Mid-tier (VIC) (5 PQE) | 1 | $125,000 | Yes, $25,000 cash | 5.75 | 6/10 | Meh – management |
| Mid Tier (VIC) | 1 | $155,000 | No | 6 | 6/10 | Time for a change |
| Lander & Rogers (VIC) | 1 | $121,000 | No | 6.5 | 8/10 | Happy |
| Unstated (VIC, 6 PQE) | 1 | $211,000 | Yes, $10,000 cash | - | 7/10 | Large workload |
We had more responses from SAs and SCs than any other position type. Many seemed dissatisfied, despite comparatively high pay compared to their peers — funnily, the most dissatisfied with pay tended to be those at the top of the pay scale… Many rated their firms highly, yet still thought it was time for a change. Here’s a quick selection of some of the comments from Senior Associates:
Norton Rose NSW: “Happy – I have been well supported by this firm. Sad – The closer it gets, the thought of life as a partner holds a continually decreasing appeal. Not really firm related, more profession related.”
Norton Rose VIC: “Norton Rose is a great place to work. Compared to the firm I used to work at (Top Tier) – people are friendly and the partners are supportive”
Norton Rose NSW: “Has global ambitions (read: pretensions), but it just can’t shake off its provincial ways – or at least it still has a long way to go. The partners don’t have the gravitas to bring in big-ticket headline deals. Needs a clean out of the deadwood.”
G+T: “The atmosphere in Corporate sucks.”
Corrs: “Good leadership, great work, decent people. The firm is achieving things and growing, which is nice, isn’t it…”
Sydney boutique: “Happy – great working hours and not too much pressure; Sad – the fact that friends and family seem to think I’m some sort of failure for not working at a top / mid tier firm ”
Blakes VIC: “Happy: show me the money. Sad: progression prospects are laughable; workload crippling”
Minters VIC: “Good management and friendly atmosphere.”
Minters ACT: “Some quality work but some strange partners”
Minters VIC: “Happy – some great people, interesting and smart; sad – partners only interested in making money, not genuinely interested in career development of lawyers. Maternity leave as a fee earner = career limiting move, but nobody acknowledges it and all you get is spin.”
Watson Mangioni: “Idiosyncracies are allowed to flourish, but this has its problems if said idiosyncrasies are personality disorders. Generally the firm isn’t too bad to work for save for the perennial issue of rapacious partners and one or two utter cunts.”
For the good of all concerned, someone had really better have a word to whoever it is at Watson Mangioni that is spawning complaints from staff at all levels of the firm (similar comments from other PQE bands).
There you have it, folks. Some numbers to ponder and some comments to kick things off. It’s always possible that we’ve made some transcription or other errors in the above,* so do post corrections in the comments and we’ll update the list. And, as always, air your views about your firm (good or bad) in the comments.
* To generate the tables, we’re using a relatively primitive manual process that involves copying cells out of a spreadsheet, but we hope to get a permanent live db set up soon. Any volunteers would be gratefully received…
Stay tuned for partners and support staff. And it’s not too late to add your salaries to our survey!
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Can we get some HWL Ebsworth details? I am fairly reliably informed that they are paying above market these days.
Looking forward to the support staff update. Lot of silence around the salaries of the people who keep your disorganised lawyer backsides in order!
Very interesting. Thanks FS.
@Skiman
They do pay over market rate to entice you there but then come pay review time you will be lucky to get $500-1000.
HWL are notorious for underpaying staff
HWL = worst firm ever!!!!
When HWL have been bringing across top tier partners (mainly Banking and Finance) their juniors have also been coming with them. The juniors generally get brought across at their Mallesons’ etc. wages (i.e. way more than their contemporaries at HWL). They then get shafted in subsequent pay reviews until their HWL contemporaries catch up (which never actually happens – it is after all only a few hundred meters from Australia Square back up to the top tier firms up the hill) …
Agree with the prior comments.
HWL is a turd circle firm with delusions of grandeur.
Why the hate for HWL? ‘Turd circle firm’, ‘worst firm ever’ – is this for any particular reason outside pay grumbles?
A common gripe I hear from ex HWLers is that some clients are siloed in practice groups to the extent that relationship managers will refer work out in areas they practice in to protect the relationship from other HWL lawyers (who may either stuff up or steal the relationship). No idea if true, but wherever it happens, selfishness and lack of trust in your partners is toxic. That very thing has caused a well FS publicised partnership bust up in another firm recently.
HWL = bad culture. The comment about referral of matters is true.
Staff are really underpaid. Was a former employee at 3+ pqe and I was on $75k. At review time, a bunch of excuses such as ‘you will be reviewed again in Jan’. Jan rolled around ‘you will be reviewed again in July but here is a $1500.00 rise for all the hard work you have been doing.
This is after exceeding billibles and putting up with some pretty bad partners.
Anyone looking to go there, be warned. You will never earn what you are worth (unless of course you are a partner moving across).
@Clarence Boddicker
Yes it is the same at clutz Brisbane corporate energy resources team and their Sydney team which Is still reeling from the A&O event!