Dear Ms./Mr.
Re: My Firm is Too Good For You
Thank you very much for your recent letter explaining that, despite the fact I am a wonderful person and will likely win the Nobel Prize for Law someday, you were not able to offer me a callback interview and/or a position as a Summer Clerk. I regret to inform you that I am unable to accept your refusal to offer me a position as a Summer Clerk/callback interview.
This year I have received an unusually large number of rejection letters, making it impossible for me to accept them all. Despite your outstanding experience in rejecting applicants, your refusal does not meet my needs at this time.
Therefore, I shall initiate employment with your firm in March of 2012. Best of luck in rejecting future candidates.
Yours sincerely,
[redacted]
Along a similar, but more constructive line, we received this plea for help from another candidate who calls themselves Dejected Student. Read on for details.
I have often read that people who don’t get clerkships just aren’t good enough, essentially.
I want to know what is good enough. My clerkship ambitions were killed today. I have good marks, top tier experience (of over a year), experience in a bulge bracket IB, and sound communication skills (I combine law with communications). I’ve tried really hard for this and was very passionate about it. I just don’t understand what else I could have done.
I got multiple first round interviews and some second round interviews. I can’t imagine bombing in those? I’ve had a lot of interview experience and felt that some went very well, and others didn’t.
I guess I’m just extremely dejected and feel like I’ve wasted time in working quite hard.
Dejected Student: it isn’t necessarily a case of not being “good enough”. There are a whole range of reasons why you might not have received offers: your interview technique might not be as swish as you think it is (the fact that you were rejected at first round from some firms might suggest that – then again, it might not, or you might just have had a bad day/grumpy panel), or there might have just been a typo in your CV. It’s also simplistic to think of all the effort you’ve put into the process as “wasted time”. After all, polishing up your CV, getting some real life interview practice, and learning a bit about the legal industry will stand you in pretty good stead when it comes time to apply for grad positions.
From our limited experience (as clerkship applicants many moons ago, and more recently on interview panels) what firms are looking for is something a little beyond “good marks and some firm experience”. Marks will get you the interview spot and top-tier experience as an RA or paralegal will count for something, but what most firms really want to see is genuine commercial insight (rare in students), an awareness of client concerns and industry news, clear thinking, genuine interest in the firm’s work (demonstrated by your knowledge of their clients, recent matters, etc.), and a good attitude — not just sycophantism, desperation or naivity. But then, in an age where many candidates now have JDs, industry experience or other masters-level law qualifications, you might simply need to accept that absent outstanding (first class honours) grades from a G8 university, it’s going to be hard work to get yourself into a top-tier firm. But more to the point: is that really what you want?
FS community: it’s late on a school night for most of us, but what tips can you offer to Dejected Student and others like him/her?
Update: thanks for all the encouraging and constructive responses. Our source has written back to say:
I am ‘Dejected Student’. Thanks for answering my plea. I emailed Firmspy on the day I received my rejections (so I was very dejected indeed), and have since moved on and started feeling significantly better. Cuts always sting the worst when they’re fresh.
The copious amounts of Alize I consumed that day aided my recovery greatly, so I strongly recommend it to anyone facing similar rejections.
As others have said more eloquently in the comments below, keep your chin up and keep trying! You might want to lay off the daytime drinking though – much as it might be good preparation for working with some partners.
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I understand your frustration. I only had 1 seasonal offer after the whole process and I was extremely disappointed. I went to the most prestigious law school in the country, had decent marks (distinction) and some genuinely unique talents (which I won’t go into, I want to keep this anonymous).
I know it’s hard to understand, but perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise. The first two years at a top-tier are very tough. Long hours and no sympathy from partners are the name of the game. The attrition rate is high.
Go on ‘seek’ and check out how many jobs there are for 2 – 4 PQE lawyers with top-tiers. This is because many people throw in the towel at this stage – and this is where you can jump in. The hardest part in the career process is right now.
If you go to a smaller, boutique firm for the first two years you will get more responsibility and feel less like a number and a person. You will learn more and, if you wish, make the jump to top-tier after a few years. However, you might see that top-tier isn’t what you really want and even stay!
If you don’t get a grad offer with a good Boutique, do your College of Law/Leo and try again. You will be cheaper for the firms (saving them the cost of the GDLP).
It’s normal to feel disappointed, but use that emotion correctly. Remember it, and use that as motivation: The only way to avoid that feeling is to take steps to ensure it doesn’t happen again. Positive, correct steps will improve the situation, not idle disappointment.
Finally, it’s not your fault that the legal industry here has an over-abundance of applicants for these positions. It doesn’t mean you are not competent or capable.
Good luck.
Well, it’s not close to the end of the world for you, as you still have graduate applications when the time comes.
If your graduate applications don’t lead to fruition, then you have several options including:
1. Do small law
2. Do something else (maybe government)
There are several government agencies that give you good standing to enter the law 2 or 3 years down the track, such as ASIC, ATO, ACCC, DFAT and also the Commonwealth DPP (avoid the State one) for prosecutions relating to the criminal liability of corporations etc…
Other non government options including corporate advisories, investment and retail banking, management consulting, and doing broad commercial and corporate related work for construction and resources companies.
Say you spend two years in this manner, the working knowledge you gain from working at ACCC/bank/resources company is valuable to Trade Prac, banking, and energy prac groups in larger firms.
Yes, you’ll be 25, 26 maybe 27 when you re-enter the law as an entry level candidate, but in the bigger scheme of things, 2 years is nothing. Also be prepared that once you’re in the law, in an environment that is multiple folds more formal and toxic than government and other industries, there is a high chance you will be kicking yourself.
Without encountering Dejected Student in an interview, or reading his/her CV, it is hard to really provide any meaningful advice beyond what FS has already said. It’s a tough market out their with a complete oversupply of students applying for top tier positions. So many hiring decisions are not based on anything that can be put on paper – if you are picking from a pool of people with similar marks etc it can be more about the intangible elements, like “fit”.
Regarding your prior experience, they may have taken your investment bank experience as an indicator that you are considering not becoming a lawyer, which may have counted against you (it does happen occasionally). Also, if your prior top tier law firm experience consisted of working in the mail room/as an outside clerk/in the “legal technology” group, it probably won’t have been given much weight by the firms.
You could try ringing and asking the HR people that you dealt with at the top tiers why you weren’t offered a position. Some may fob you off, but I know of some firms that have provided feedback in the past. I also don’t know if there is only one opportunity for you to interview for clerkships – if you still have another year in which you can apply, some firms who rejected you this time around may give you a shot next time.
The other thing I’d add is that sometimes there is such a thing as being too passionate. Sometimes we’ve interviewed people who are very intense in their interviews (or in clerkships, if they get that far) and it is offputting.
Finally, if you don’t end up getting anything in top tier, I’d recommend doing what you can to get into a mid tier/boutique (not “small”) firm. After a couple of years the top tiers tend to lose a lot of their original grad intakes and are usually happy to hire people who have worked at mid tiers or boutiques.
Good luck.
My marks were not fantastic when I graduated, due mainly to my full time work as a project manager for an engineering firm and so I bypassed the grad programs knowing that I would not even have a shot.
Instead, I took an investigations role in a government organisation (and the role paid a helluva lot more than a grad position with probably half the hours). Here I gained some quite niche experience and I learnt how to think rather than simply do what I was told. People will tell you that once you get into government there is no way out… This is quite simply a load of bollocks.
I was there for two years and following this took up a position in a professional services firm as a lateral hire and using the specialist experience I had gained, leap frogged people that I would have been in the grad program with. Subsequent to this I worked for a mid tier legal firm and the reason I got this position was again the niche government experience.
There is more to life/work than getting a grad position. Some of the best lawyers I know did not start in a top tier grad program (in fact most did not go through any form of grad program). I work in-house now and I must admit that I can always tell when I have to negotiate with lawyers that have served their time in a top tier firm – they tow their company’s line without any understanding of the issues/situation/law (as though they are reading from a script) and you know what – this makes them easy prey.
So my advice would be – look in other places outside of law / professional services firms. You might find something that interests you, with more money, better conditions and better people and then just make sure you continually push yourself. In a couple of years there is nothing preventing you from moving to a top tier law firm if this is what you really want.
Take it by the chin. Clerkships from a top-tier law firm isn’t the only way in getting into law. As hard as it is, university results don’t matter as much when other things such as work experience, and even subjective measures like how well your personality matches the law firm’s culture are taken into account.
Right now the ALRC are currently recruiting summer interns and they’ll be happy to take anyone who shows enthusiasm for the law. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and don’t be close-minded about your law career.
My advice would be to broaden your options.
Try looking at smaller firms, and don’t just send off a pro forma application letter at the same time the big firms are recruiting. In my firm we keep our eyes open for good people all the time. If the timing is right, we might get someone in for a few days or weeks to help out, and if they are any good this can lead to a job.
Otherwise, you could always try year or two in an Accounting or Public Service grad program (where you can probably also get admitted).
haha, the former letter was the biggest joke during the whole clerkship process. Some Harvard law student wrote it and you can find it on google.
There are people out there applying who don’t actually have first class honours? Fools!
Perhaps Dejected Student is not a Minters style babe, simple as that?
I applied for about 20 summer clerkships about 5 years ago and got about 5 offers from top tier firms. I rejected them all, every single, deciding i wanted to do College of Law instead. I was so disgusted by these pigs that interviewed me i thought “i dont want to be like that”. HR people called me back, shocked……. and then wanted to interview me as to why i rejected them! F-k em i say.
Dejected Student: There’s no method to it. Brilliant people miss out, and semi-simian intellects, at times with autistic tendencies, make it in. Normal people who do escape the draconian HR maze and make it in spend their next few years planning their exit.
Consider it a lottery and leave it at that. You may have just ducked a bullet.
Hi Dejected Student,
Did you just target top tiers? I’ve found that results massively varied with people I went to uni with, some got heaps of top tier interviews and no mid tiers, some the other way around. I can’t figure out exactly what they look for, but I think your personality fit with a firm counts for a lot as well as a bit of luck!
Now that’s a rejection letter!
I think its dawning on people that there just are no jobs. The law schools are hopelessly overcrowded, and its getting worse every year. Instead of blaming themselves, law students should be seriously questioning the people who make money off the backs of law students.
Also think a lot of the comments here are wrongheaded. if you dont get biglaw straightaway, you never get it. Its also good to say ‘work for a small firm’ but the reality is these jobs dont make any money.
Heh @ stuff em. I’m sure you were so good that you were beating them all off with a stick.
I highly recommend you check out in-house jobs in Engineering, Mining, Aviation, IT, etc. You get direct commercial experience and this will put you in good standing when you pass the 1-2 year PAE.
I’ve been working in-house since Graduation. I did my PLT here and had 5 awesome in-house lawyers looking after me from drafting letters to conducting litigation or engaging in negotiation with lawyers/partners from top tiers. Some of them even offered me a job.
Don’t sell yourself short and look over in-house! It’s definitely worth it!
@ henry – re: small-law. That may be true of small suburban/property firms, but not so of good small specialist/boutique firms. Target these, and you find what they lack in resources they make up for with money substantially beyond top tiers.
@ henry – I agree with the other Anon. Run of the mill “small” firms will not get you into top tier, but boutique or mid tiers can.
Why don’t you just go find a full-time job somewhere and finish your degree over the next two years instead of one year? You can then reapply for summer clerkship roles next year. With the extra work experience and all the interview practice, you’ll fare better next time around. By next year, you will be a far better, more confident candidate.
@Six Minutes – I don’t necessarily agree with you about govt. I went down that path and after 3 years at the ACCC I wanted to head back to private practice and found it extremely difficult. I eventually found a job and am very happy but it was a hard road as firms, particularly top tier firms, have the misconception that if you work in government you don’t have a work ethic and won’t fit into private practice. Of course there are some like that everywhere and probably especially in govt, but people like that remain in govt and don’t venture back out into ‘the real world’ of law.
I’d definitely recommend a boutique firm over the govt path (other than criminal govt e.g. DPP / CDPP). I think Marco was spot on – there is a high attrition rate in top tier, and in the first 2 years at top tier you really don’t have much of an opportunity to sink your teeth into anything and really learn anything. Much better to go to a smaller firm where you may be a lot more hands on and have more responsibility, and then if after 2-3 years you still want to try a top tier firm, then approach a recruitment agency.
I wrote to Firmspy in the midst of my disappointment (the day I received my applications). I really expected to be lambasted here for whining. Thank you very much for offering constructive advice; it really helps, particularly from people who are more experienced than I am.
*Rejections, not applications!
The deluded lemmings are almost too much to bear here. ‘Just work in corporate law!’ , ‘Just work for a boutique!’. The reality is this. These jobs are basically impossible to get if you aren’t ex-BigLaw.
There is a massive oversupply of law students, due to the greed of law faculties, if you dont get biglaw straight out of university, your career is over. Employers only have time to review one criteria, your marks at uni, thats it.
Instead of giving deluded advice, how about cracking down on the ludicrous oversupply of graduates?
And of course what we’re all forgetting is that the older lawyers changed the rules a few years ago so that you have to work for someone else for 2 years before going out for yourself. So not only are you lucky to land a first job making 30k or so, but you’re effectively locked in to working for others for lousy salaries before you can work for yourself (of course, when you work for yourself, you discover there’s no money in that either).
Henry, shut your pie hole and stop with your incessant preaching of the end of the world.