Quote 1
We don’t run this place as a holiday camp. We expect our people to treat the client as if they were God and to put themselves out for clients. You don’t say, “Sorry I can’t do it, I’m playing cricket on the weekend” … You don’t have a right to any free time.
(Tom Poulton, former managing partner of Allens Arthur Robinson, BRW 3/3/2005)
Quote 2
There is one single KPI in a law firm, and it’s called profit. That model is basically saying to a young lawyer, ‘We’ve got a lottery. Come in, work hard for 10 to 15 years, never have a life, you may be one of the very few that get into an equity partner position where you start to earn seven figures and get on your way.
And, as you fall across the line into an equity partner role … the fun just begins, because you can’t take the foot off the gas, you’ve got to press hard … Then you’ve got to do that for another 10 or 15 years.
(Nigel McBride, managing partner of Minter Ellison (SA/NT), Tristan Jepson Memorial Lecture 2011)
Quote 3
There’s alot of talk about work-life balance, but I think it’s an unfortunate phrase. The reality is you’ve got to put alot of effort in.
(Geoff Harley, partner, Clayton Utz, AFR 30/6/2006)
Quote 4
All lawyers hate time sheets. If you don’t keep up to date with your time-recording… you lose it – it just goes away… Lawyers are probably notorious for being resistant to change.
(David Lawson, managing partner of Rigby Cooke Lawyers, AFR 5/8/2011)
From memory, if students unenrol from a degree in the first few weeks of their first semester, the course fees are refundable. There’s some food for thought!
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Haha, I see Firm Spy is doing its part to try to reduce the oversupply of lawyers.
There are many things that could improve in the legal sector. Especially time based billing and the attendant stress and administrative overhead and the lack of awareness that there need to be strong emotional and mental welfare support structure for a high stress job.
Those about to go into the profession or start a journey that takes them there should be fully aware of those facts.
Let’s look at the profession from a few other vantage points though. We’re constantly comparing ourselves to bankers, hedge fund managers, etc. But we earn a fair amount of money from fairly early on. If we look at our hours and the stress of getting the documentation right for a deal or a court case (particularly in the corporate sector) and compare it with the stress of an emergency unit or intensive care ward, or look at the hours we spend slaving away in front of the computer screen and compare it with the workload of a teacher who works weekends and nights to get her study plans done but gets paid a fraction of our salaries, it helps with perspective.
I’m not suggesting for a second that our salaries are unreasonably high or that the stress of the job is self-indulgent. I’m just saying let’s remember that the alternatives are not cakewalks. It’s easy to spend so much time talking to other lawyers about relative pay increases etc that you forget the bigger picture. I was talking to a business analyst in IT the other day who was talking about what ‘we’ might earn in the next 10 years – he was 40 years old and was talking about the salary I earn today as being something aspirational and far off. I’m more than 10 years younger than him… Then a friend of mine who’s a doctor was saying she got a pay rise of 2.5% which, shall we say is a little less than most yearly bumps I heard about amongst lawyers in FY10/11.
And that’s just other professionals in capital city Australia. A lot of people are uncomfortably waiting for the first major LPO deals shifting jobs to China and India (maybe it’ll be in the form of K&W Mallies)… the whole labour market is going global thanks to communications technology. Do we really think our children will be able to sustain the salary differentials we enjoy today? The levelling out has already begun in fits and starts.
Again, none of this is suggesting people ‘get over it’ or not agitate for better conditions. But let’s understand that there’s no golden alternative. We’ve just got to fight to make sure our lives are liveable. Come join the profession, but with your eyes open and willing to fight for a culture of work you’ll enjoy in all its aspects, not just a few.
Read this listening to Mogwai’s “I know you are but what am I?”, am now sufficiently depressed. Thanks for a great Tuesday morning pick-me-up FS!
As a SA in the M&A group at one of the traditionally recognized ‘big 3′ firms (aar, freehills, malllies) I have to comment on the one sidedness of this post.
Nobody disputes that this job is time intensive and hard work, that it has the potential to ruin your weekends and holidays and that you’re likely to be at you desk past midnight more often than you plan to be.
However, what about the good? Honestly – I love my job. I get to work with some of the best lawyers in the country on a daily basis – people who know their shit backwards and inside out, and who want to teach me. I work on deals worth hundreds of millions and billions of dollars. I meet clients who are amazing at what they do, and I help them achieve what they want for their businesses (I also meet clients who have no clue, and they can be lots of fun to work with too). I learn new things all day long, every day – I am constantly becoming better at what I do (and I’m not talking about in a formal 6 monthly review way, I mean in a practical way of being able to get a job done well). I think my job is exciting and I love that I’m working in an environment that challenges me and brings out my best.
Now obviously it isn’t all roses – some days are hard, some are slow, some deals are boring, some cliets are difficult, but overall, the good outweighs the bad by a long, long way. I also think that as you get more experienced the job becomes better – you graduate from the photocopying and bible-making and index-checking to actual, substantive work. My role now is far more enjoyable than when I was a second year.
I’ve also had roles in house, and in my experience, lawyers are treated far better at law firms, where they are not a cost centre, where they have ample training and where they are appreciated far more as value adders rather than a hurdle stopping the ‘real business’ from occurring. Sure, at some law firms, and with some people, this isn’t the case. I’ve had some bad experiences working for a bully, too. But overall I genuinely believe that most people are not, by nature, bad people. What’s more, your job security is no worse at a law firm than anywhere else – at least at a law firm if you are good then you will always be safe, and you know all the people that make the decisions about your progression. Compare this to at a corporate where a decision made by a bunch of random people in a corporate boardroom and -poof- your whole division has disappeared, and it doesn’t matter how good you were or what you did (see, for example, Toyota, ANZ, Alcoa, Qantas, Sleep City, etc.)
The quotes you’ve got above might ring true, but ask those guys if they like their jobs and I’ll bet the answer is yes.
So, Firmspy, two questions for you.
1. What’s your background? Did you do this job for 2 years, have the bad luck to work for a bully, and never see the interesting work that goes on around you all the time?
And,
2. If you are still slaving away at a law firm and hate it that much, then why are you still doing it? I genuinely don’t understand this. If people hate the job so much, then find a different job in a different industry – life is too short to have a job that makes you depressed.
These comments are valid as I have seen from personal experience. As you get more senior your hours, responsibility and stress-levels rise with the pay. This, unfortunately, is reality and is here to stay.
Thus, I shall try to help out the readers with some comments below – things that can be controlled.
It is also almost essential to have an experience senior lawyer to take care of you and mentor you. One must be proactive in finding one – most law firms do not have strong formal mentoring programs if at all. Anecdotally, the Big 4 accounting firms are actually better in that respect.
At the very least the positive thing is that surviving there for 3-4 years will certainly toughen you up. Consider it a forge for your character. The longer you stay, the tougher you get.
Most of all, one needs a group of friends and family for support during the tough times. A lot of people neglect these vital connections to the detriment of their mental and physical health. Aim to hang around people who can understand and empathise with your unique situation so that you are more comfortable opening up when things are tough.
Good luck to everyone.
yeah change courses why you still can! lots of my friends who did arts had a much better time at uni, earn roughly the same or more and have more enjoyable jobs. if you dont want to spend 10-15 yrs making salary partner dont bother. enjoy life dont spend it in an office! think about why you are doing law and if it is not because you love the law and know what a lawyer ACTUALLY does (not what they do on TV), then talk to a counsellor about other options or why you need to be a lawyer. It is probably your parents, your marks at school, or your school saying that you should be a lawyer or a doctor or some other professional. Heed this warning!! Not to mention that the profession is full of people suffering anxiety and profession.
Meh I leave at 5:30 every day. Is there work to be done? Yup! Do I care? Nope! My contract says 5:30 so that’s when I leave. Been doing that for 4 years now. Sure the clients get annoyed, but they can shove it. F*** I love working at woolworths.
The M&A SA from the top tier has the same level of authenticity as Ja’ime King. I hope you didn’t bill the time constructing that fluff out to the client.
PS “people who know there shit backwards”
that one swear word made me feel like you were just an everyday person and not a narcisstic, sociopath on their soap box
A while ago I faced the choice of whether to work for a major law firm in the city, or work in the resources industry. I decided to go with a starting salary 50% higher, finishing work at 5 every day, actually doing important and useful work from day 1 rather than discovery and pushing a trolley of legal papers down to the courts.
Sure, I could earn more if I won the equity partner raffle FS refers to, but in any other event I think I made the right choice.
Can’t help but disagree with anon. In house is awesome and private (outhouse) is terrible. Guess it depends where you are sitting. Miss litigation though, insurance at large corporate entities requires external lawyers, so it becomes a bore for the in houser.
On top of that, I think that if you join the profession for the moneye then you are kidding yourself. You can make more in mining, finance, commerce or other services. You should only seek entry to the law if you have passion. Brains are cheap and widely available in the law.
It is great that firm leaders are giving young lawyers and law students a more accurate insight into what big-firm legal practice is like. It’s not all pro bono work, 9am to 5pm, high-fives in the corridor, immediate feedback and one-to-one training – despite what the summer clerk brochure said.
I was shocked to read some of the recruitment material the US and UK firms use. These firms are very upfront about their workplaces being high-intensity, challenging environments where weekends and dinner plans will be sacrificed and your evenings may not be your own. The message they want to convey is: if that doesn’t sound like a place you want to work, then don’t apply. Sounds fair enough to me.
Australian firms need to get real with their applicants. The best and the brightest in the country, being the ones you are targeting, aren’t stupid. I doubt they are joining for access to a pro bono program and doubt they expect that the prospect of working with leading lawyers on the largest deals also means they will be tucked up in bed by 10pm each night. Work/life balance is about leaving when you can (or need to) and staying when you can (or need to). Mindless face-time at the office when there is nothing that needs doing is what needs to be addressed.
Some management consulting firms are much better at this – they allow staff to be within 1 hour of the office on days when there is no current project running but otherwise they are free to do BD / industry work from home or just take time out and roam at will.
“If you are still slaving away at a law firm and hate it that much, then why are you still doing it? I genuinely don’t understand this. If people hate the job so much, then find a different job in a different industry – life is too short to have a job that makes you depressed.”
I completely agree with this statement.
“if you are good then you will always be safe, and you know all the people that make the decisions about your progression. Compare this to at a corporate where a decision made by a bunch of random people in a corporate boardroom and -poof- your whole division has disappeared”
I completely disagree with this statement. Look at the Freehills leading practice review where management tried to squeeze out whole practice groups. I am sure they were good at what they did – perhaps just not profitable enough? We’ve all seen SAs and SCs squeezed out because there was no room for them in the partnership. They were still good lawyers! Large law firms are now operated as corporates. Mallesons, Freehills and AAR all have “executive” partners who perform CEO-type functions and report to a supervising board.
Having a successful law career involves an element of luck (i.e. partner retiring, star partners leaving en masse, stumbling into a practice group which is going through a growth phase), playing the political game (with the support of a mentor/champion), being good at what you do AND then there is a whole lot of hard work.
Working with smart people on front-page deals until 4am week-in-week-out does guarantee long term success. If it did, senior associate attrition rates wouldn’t be so high.
“It is also almost essential to have an experience senior lawyer to take care of you and mentor you.”
This is key and is the only reason why, 7 years on, I am still in this profession. You need a mentor who will guide you through the politics of the firm and will promote your career internally to the people that matter.
“Honestly – I love my job”
I smile and think it’s great when lawyers say this … then I back away slowly. They are usually the same ones that cry in the toilets at 3pm on a Monday after having worked all weekend without any acknowledgement from the partner or the client.
“You don’t have a right to any free time.”
This is basically slavery. To claim ownership over someone’s free time (even metaphorically) is disgraceful.
We pay you 100k per year – and we own you. We tell you when you can go home. We tell you how much work you will do – no matter how unreasonable that request is.
What’s that? You don’t want to be in the office at 3am? You want to look after your health? You want to see your kids? Too bad. You don’t have a right to any free time.
I have been in private practice for the better part of a decade in a top ten law firm. My experiences are as follows:
1) It is high pressure and stressful-your physical and mental health will almost certainly suffer. As a young graduate you may think you can tough it out but in reality, few can manage the almost daily verbal abuse from the psychopaths that will surround you every working day. Try to recall the most recent time you were screamed at in a violent manner for little to no reason-that is quite common. After a while it will break you down-you will become introverted, untrusting and a generally depressed person inside and outside the workplace. There is only so much stomach wrenching, vomit and diarrhea inducing stress a person can take. I hate the fact that I went from being a pleasant outgoing person when I came into the profession to someone who is now introverted, depressed and on edge almost every hour of the day.
2) The work can be interesting and mentally challenging. You are likely to be stimulated mentally in this role like few others. I have worked in law and in other sectors professionally. The degree to which you are stimulated will depend on the firm and the area you work in. Litigation can be particularly interesting.
3) Money-is nowhere near as much as you think it is. Think $100K after 5 years. $200K after a decade if you are lucky. While this is better than the average salary, realistically you can’t do much damage with that type of money in Sydney.
4) Bullying-is rife. Both male and female lawyers engage in it. You will be told you are wrong and made to look like a retard even when you are right and a better lawyer than your superior. Racists and bigots are prevalent. Look at any large firm’s website. Notice that all the partners are white and mostly male? Do you think this is a coincidence? There is a degree of entrenched entitlement there. If you are from a minority, you are up against it. Sheer disgusting nasty racism against minorities has been openly displayed by partners. (Do you think anyone makes a complaint? HR have their back).
There is good and bad in every profession. My experiences have been largely negative. I consider myself to be a highly capable lawyer. Unfortunately it counts for little when all that matters are the bonuses the partners you work for are chasing.
Everyone above you will try to make your climb up the greasy pole as hard as they can make it. Why? Because they can and you can’t do shit about it. I have seen a managing partner (after a few drinks) walk up to a junior lawyer and tell him he is an “insignificant piece of shit”.
Try getting another job in law? Partners talk to each other, even recruiters lack confidentiality (the bar is always an option but it has its own risks). All this works to keep the average solicitor down. If you are liked, have a mentor or are related to a partner things will be different for you. Nepotism is definately there.
This is my no bullshit first hand experience. I am not some loser bitching because I am not getting anywhere. I’m doing well compared to most but it had been a hard slog with backstabbing from colleagues every step of the way. I wouldn’t do the job if I didn’t enjoy the intellectual challenge. If you aren’t passionate about the law you are wasting your time.
Hope this post prevents someone from making an uninformed mistake that will waste several years of effort better directed elsewhere.
The trick to getting to the top in a law firm is to keep moving firms. The minute you get within site of a log jam, jump! Your new firm will appreciate you (at least for a while) and then when they stop doing that, jump again! This will actually help you acquire a diversity of experience and client base. There is no free ride so think about yourself as a 3-5 year max bungee jumper. Theres no such thing as loyalty to employees anymore so why be loyal to employers!
IMO one of the reasons people are unhappy in law firms is the competition. Some lawyers would have enjoyed far better career progression in other fields. However, they decided to study law because they got a high admissions score and now they are battling in a pool where people are just as, or more capable than they are.
After clerking at firms large and small, I opted for a career in government (for the time being, at least).
My first role, at a large Commonwealth entity, was quite unsatisfying. However, I am working for small State authority, and thoroughly enjoying myself, free from the pressure of billable hours, surrounded by generally happy and perfectly capable lawyers in a good team environment.
I think that the prospective law student, or graduate, or even practicing lawyer must learn to look beyond the ‘tier’ firms. These are not the only form of practice.
Nor does it follow that the ‘best lawyers’ are partners at these firms. Legal acumen seems to be secondary to business nous, connections, the ability to squeeze the most out of underlings, and the requisite personality disorder to be able to look yourself in the mirror while doing same.
As to skill and ability as a lawyer, there are plenty of specialist practitioners at small firms who have a genuine passion for their field and corresponding ability. For my money, the average barrister of ten years’ call is a much better lawyer than most of the big firm partners I’ve met.
And finally, while some government bodies are repositories of mediocrity, there are plenty of top-tier refugees who are demonstrating their true intellect by turning their back on the crappy life offered at the ‘big end’ of town. And quite often they’ll give those $700 an hour boys a good towelling in court as well!