Since then, we’ve been astounded by the level (and, with a few exceptions, the quality) of discussion and debate in the comments to the original story. Some very interesting arguments have been taking place, and although it strays a little beyond Firm Spy’s core mandate as a professional services watchdog, we are glad to have provided a level forum for discussing the issues, which, judging from some comments, could not be discussed on Red Bubble itself.
We’ve made clear that we find the Hipster Hitler merchandise offensive and distasteful. But we recognise from the comments that some (a vocal minority) feel differently.
To continue the debate, we put some probing questions to the Hipster Hitler creators themselves, and then to Martin Hosking of Red Bubble, to see what they had to say in its defence.
FS: Do you accept that there is a difference between the HH cartoon and the t-shirts sold in isolation?
Yes. Almost anyone would agree that there is a difference between a cotton t-shirt and a webcomic. We tried washing our comic once and had to buy a new laptop, even that [sic] we used fabric softener and cold wash.
FS: If so, do you think an objective viewer of HH merchandise on the street who sees the t-shirts out of the context of the HH comic, would fail to see the satire/parody in the merchandise? If they fail to see the satire/parody given the lack of HH comic context, do you think the objective viewer would consider t-shirts like: “Fear & Loathing in Laskarzew”; or “Back to the Fuhrer”; or “1941 – a Race Odyssey” as pandering to Neo-Nazi ideology?
Once again, there is no way of knowing this. How can we hypothesize on what others may or may not be thinking?
When we pun visually as well as verbally on a pop culture reference that is widely known (like Back to the Future) we are fairly certain that an objective person can recognize the pun and not fail to miss the satirical nature of it. To the best of our knowledge, puns have never been popular as a form of hate speech.
FS: Do you accept that there are openly antisemitic people (or “traditional” Neo-Nazis) who wear HH merchandise? Does this trouble you?
We would if there were any clear and indisputable evidence of such a thing. But there isn’t.
FS: Do you consider there is a risk that HH merchandise is actually creating a new form of Neo-Nazism by reframing Hitler/Nazism in a brand-new, “chic” hipster manner?
No, we don’t consider that any sort of possibility. They’re t-shirts based on a mid-tier webcomic; you might be giving it a bit too much credit. We’ve always made our intentions and ideology clear on our site, disclaimer, redbubble profile and facebook profile. Those twisted minds who willfully misinterpret and deliberately twist artistic works to fit into their hateful ideologies and seek to use it as an excuse it for their diabolical actions, we believe will appropriate any and all, perfectly legitimate forms of art to justify their behaviour, thoughts and actions.
FS: We have been advised that HH makes between $5000USD and $10000USD weekly. Is this true?
Those are widely exaggerated figures! We question the credibility of your source’s access to this information given that we haven’t sold 5000 t-shirts in total, let alone make USD $5,000 a week. When in fact, we receive about USD $1,500 A MONTH which is divided equally between the two of us.
FS: Have you considered directing your energies into creating a less controversial t-shirt range?
The t-shirts are born out of the comic, and not the other way around. We like writing the comic.
We’ll let you be the judge of how much this adds to the debate. Here’s what Martin Hosking had to say:
these issues are among the more important in our discussions with representatives of representatives [sic] of the Jewish community. This conversation is friendly and productive. There are also complex issues at play. The right to free speech is a bedrock of our democracy and of creative freedom and any decision to censor has to be taken mindfully and with great care. We are working with these peak organisations to craft a solution which balances the right to free expressions against the legitimate restrictions on it. Along with these organisation we don’t believe a knee jerk response is appropriate given the critical importance we attach to freedom of expression within legitimate boundaries.
I am not going to comment on individual T-shirts while our discussions are in progress. As a general comment the case for censorship has to be strong. Assuming the work is legal, which nobody has disputed, then a decision to censor has to be made. The onus of proof is on those who would censor (and I assume you have placed yourself in this camp) not those who support free speech. For this reason the issue needs to be very carefully looked at not simply responded to reflexively. If you have material that supports your contention … then I would be very happy to receive it.…After September 11 on return to Australia I decided to become involved in the Australian Arabic Council primarily out of concern for the nature of the relationship between the Arab world and the West. This remains a concern of mine (although I am no longer a member of the AAC). As a member of the AAC I commented on a range of issues including racial profiling (against), the arrests of terror suspects (which we supported) and Palestinian human rights. I have also in various capacities supported refugees, inter-faith dialogue, Amnesty International and range of other social justice cause. And yes I do think my involvement in these issues over many years helps me to look at the issues raised [in this debate]. I know what societies without creative freedom look like (from Burma, to Syria, Iraq and Libya). Silencing the arts is the first step of the dictator (including Hitler) so it is not a step that should be taken lightly or in an ill-considered fashion.
In a subsequent email to us, Hosking continued to defend his anti-censorship stance and provided a further example:
To give but one example one of the T’shirts you believe should be censored is “Fear & Loathing in Laskarzew” points to an event which is barely remembered. I doubt 99.9% of people would have heard of Laskarzew and this is the real tragedy. A T-shirt that said “Fear & Loathing in Srebnica” would appear to me as a useful reminder that genocide continues and forgetting this is of great concern.Your comment that we have taken an “almighty stand for a few grand” is indeed correct. At stake here is not money but some fundamental values. We have a genuine commitment and belief in the value that art provides and that controversial art (and speech) should not be arbitrarily censored. I am a little surprised that a site like FS does not share such a value.We can hear the arguments on the other side and the passion that is involved and we recognise legitimate limitations on freedom of expression. But arbitrary or capricious censorship is not the way. This is (perhaps ironically in this case) the path to tyranny. And there are always those who will put a strong case for censorship on particular topics. Artists from Van Gogh to Robert Mapplethorpe have been censored in the past.
Clearly, there are some complex issues at play here. “Censorship” is a word which evokes images of state suppression, the villification of minorities and reductions in freedom. But we think it’s important to distance state censorship (what can and can’t, legally, be said) from corporate policies which dictate what is and is not acceptable in a community (on the internet or otherwise). We have policies on FS about comments and content, and we try to enforce them. Sometimes this means removing a hateful or defamatory comment. We think it’s wrong to lump this type of content policy into the same category as a law which prohibits certain forms of expression (such as state criticism) as such.
Suffice to say, we agree with many of Mr Hosking’s arguments against “arbitrary or capricious censorship”, but we don’t think they have much bite in such a clear-cut case as this. There are no “fundamental values” at stake in t-shirts popularising Hitler and Nazism. We’d mention at this point that some of the most open and creative European societies have laws which prohibit Nazi propaganda in all its forms. These t-shirts would almost certainly be “censored” — in the traditional sense of that word — in countries like France, Austria and Germany. Yet we don’t see the kinds of harms occurring which Mr Hosking fears.
Enter (and exit) Allens Arthur Robinson
One spy forwarded us a response she received from Michael Rose, Chief Executive Partner at Allens Arthur Robinson, confirming that the firm has no relationship with Red Bubble:
Dear [name]
Thank you for your email. I have carefully considered the issues raised in it and respond as follows.
1. Until receiving your email, I was unaware of RedBubble.
2. This firm has no relationship with RedBubble.
3. Contrary to the assertion in your [date] May email to Michael Robinson, Mr Robinson is not an employee of this firm, he is merely a Consultant.
4. Mr Robinson is a member of the board of a company that is entirely separate to RedBubble. He sits on that board in a personal capacity and in no way represents this firm in that role.
5. These circumstances do not amount to this firm endorsing or condoning any activity of RedBubble.
7. The firm is unable to disassociate itself from something with which it is not associated.
Regards
Michael
Michael Rose | Chief Executive Partner
Allens Arthur Robinson
Deutsche Bank Place 126 Phillip Street | Sydney 2000 | Australia
t +61 2 9230 4023 m +61 414 223 306
What has all this got to do with Allens, you might ask? Nothing, we think. Except that (duh-duh-duh) Martin Hosking, CEO of Red Bubble, is also a director of Aconex, at the centre of the Allensgate stink. Hence why our spy presumably sought to clarify the firm’s stance to one of his other companies. Well, we’re glad Allens has nothing to do with this one! The firm has had enough scandal to last this (financial) year.
Who is Hipster Hitler?
This is where things get interesting. We received this tip late last week:
Thank you so much for writing the article about Redbubble. It is appalling what they are defending and profiting from. You have served the community well, and I applaud you for that. …
Firstly, I would like to remain completely anonymous with the information I would like to share with you.
I have been following your article regarding Redbubble’s former lawyers dropping Redbubble as a client over the Hipster Hitler materials.
I have some information that I would like to expose, but I do not know how to do it in a way that is not going to put me under possible threat or harm.
Around May 12th – 15th 2011, I stumbled across a smaller Hipster Hitler Facebook fan page [ed: since deleted] where I read a comment written by a [redacted].
Below is the comment I copied from that page:
“[redacted]
THEY DON’T REICH US: THE END OF AN ERAWell volks,
They’ve done it. Facebook has realized we’re far too underground for its stupid mainstream tastes and deleted our fan page. They have deemed it “offensive” to even mention Hitler’s name, even if it is to lampoon and satirize him. We’ll miss having facebook fans, and while we might make a JC + APK fanpage (no, seriously), for now please follow us on twitter (@hipsterhitler) or subscribe to our RSS feed. Oh, and feel free to share as many of our comics as you feel necessary on facebook, for nostalgia’s sake. Stick it to the man, guise.
Keep it authentic,
JC + APK”
Isn’t it interesting that Facebook – the world’s largest and most popular website – deems the content offensive, but not Red Bubble.
The [redacted] person seems, from our research, to point to a former publisher of German heavy-metal rock music living in Oakland, CA, whose Facebook interests include “Soviet Russia” and can be seen in one profile picture wearing what appears to be a HH t-shirt. We haven’t posted his name for the moment, because (a) we can’t think of a way to positively verify this information, and (b) until that time, we believe in his right to privacy — or, at least, to step forward on his own terms. The FS team thought about this one long and hard, but we’ll wait to hear your ideas in the comments.
Anyway, our anonymous spy continues:
I am certain that this is one of the creators behind Hipster Hitler, who goes by the initials JC & APK. (… I am quite certain that JC is [redacted])
I am not sure what I should do with this information, but I am eager to share it with someone in an appropriate and safe manner.
And in that spirit we pass it on.
We’re not convinced that the Facebook posting is authentic, or means what our spy thinks it means. Unless “JC” made a major screwup (perhaps accidentally cross-posting under his personal FB account) and then deleted the post, it seems more likely to be a pseudonym, or perhaps just the [redacted] guy reposting another post by JC. Moreover, it smells a bit suspect to be contacted after the recent saga by a spy who is adament that “[redacted]” is behind the Hipster Hitler merchandise, but without any smoking gun evidence. Can you find anything we’ve missed? Over to you.
———-
UPDATE:
On Saturday 4 June 2011, Red Bubble temporarily removed the Hipster Hitler t-shirt range from sale. Mr Hosking made the following comment:
Pending final outcome of our discussions with a range of organisations (including the Anti-Defamation Commission) we have decided to moderate a range of controversial work on the site related to portrayals of Hitler, the Holocaust and related events.
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In January, complaints were made to Facebook about their Hipster Hitler page.
Facebook took it down, as many of the “Fans” were making racist, nazi comments, that were not being deleted. Facebook said they they do not allow any reference to Hitler.
Unfortunately Hipster Hitler wrote back to Facebook, saying they needed the page for business and would monitor it. They were re-instated.
Facebook caved.
Why doesn’t Hosking go all the way and have a t-shirt that says “Fear and Loathing in Auschwitz”. A “useful reminder” he would say. Sick.
“We have a genuine commitment and belief in the value that art provides and that controversial art (and speech) should not be arbitrarily censored.”
Mass produced t-shirts are not art.
Hosking is a hypocrite for talking about free speech. He bans people just for saying “profiting from genocide is evil”.
http://fineartamerica.com/blogs/banned-by-redbubble-for-protesting-against-profiting-from-genocide.html
You should have asked him why he finds ‘Back to the Fuhrer’ useful free speech.
@Anon
Not quite right, Facebook made Hipster Hitler take down much of the worst material before reinstating it
- photos of children dressed in SS uniforms
- some of the worst jokes about ovens and baked goods
The “fan forums” have also gone chock full of Nazi-sympathy
This stuff has been up there for months while RedBubble has been selling their t-shirts.
I don’t understand why Hosking refers to famous artists. He is selling t-shirts with slogans on them not art.
Thank you for this excellent followup.
This is a complex issue, and one that the Redbubble administration need to give the proper credence to. This means talking with Jewish community Groups, and their membership to set a clear policy for what is, and what is not acceptable.
Sadly, the issue itself is muddied by personal conflicts from members on the site. One one side, you have a small number of former users running a campaign against Redbubble which spreads misinformation, regularly spams, and has been linked to a hate mail campaign against their “opposition”. It’s a minority reaction, but it taints all those that have genuine concerns about the proliferation of this sort of “art”
On the otherside, you have an almost automated response from the same handful of members on Redbubble intent on shouting down any negative views on the artwork. It does nothing but inspire a stronger reaction, and really needs to be looked at by RB. It inflames the already heated environment, and detracts from an important issue
There is an echo chamber of sorts, from the Redbubble members that have stayed, and a group on the other side (most identified by their Facebook Group to air grievances and to co-ordinate their spamming attacks) that has led to this becoming personal vendettas against individuals, rather than a larger debate on the issues
Redbubble is right to ban spammers, instigators and those that choose to accuse and defame rather than expose the underlying issues. I hope that those that choose to shout their opinions, from both sides are marginalized, and a common sense middle ground takes over the debate.
I have faith that Redbubble will act in the best interest of their site, their membership and in line with their social responsibility. This does not mean responding to righteous indignation spread by a very small number of former users, and it should mean reacting to anyone on their site that chooses to attack anyone that is offended by the works
As you know, there have been hundreds of comments, threads, posts and such deleted from Redbubble for protesting these t-shirts. Martin Hosking is a hypocrite that goes against his own TOS and “Play Nice Policy” . To add further insult to injury, he suspends and bans the accounts of those that protest but continues to sell their work while they are suspended and have no access to it. Redbubble is the most unethically managed website I have ever run across in my entire life. He talks a real good talk but certainly doesn’t walk the walk!!
I too saw that comment on the Facebook HH website. It was also posted [the exact same wording] on HH website homepage for a short while when FB closed their FB fanpage, so in my mind, there is no doubt it is from the same person.
I eagerly look forward to your articles appearing in my RSS feeds, however I have to question this one. To quote from your “About” page:
How exactly does this article fall within your definition of “the finest legal and commercial news”?
Or this one:
Nope, I still can’t see the relevance of this article. Please enlighten me?
Surely it must meet with your declared “mission”, right?
Am I missing something, ’cause I simply can’t see the relevance?
If you want to report on something truely shocking and abhorrent but equally irrelevant to your espoused mission, why not raise your readership’s knoweldge on child sex trafficking in Asia? I’m sure you find a tenuous link, with many Australian firms having offices in countries where child sex trafficking is rife.
So Martin Hosking sees Nazi slogans like BACK TO THE FUHRER as a matter of free speech and this speech is of “fundamental value” to him. He is a publisher of these slogans which are then worn around by the buyers as t-shirts.
Exercising my right of free speech in response, I say:
Profiting from genocide is evil. Anything that seeks to revive Nazism is evil.
Martin Hosking in my opinion profits from genocide and sells slogans that seek to revive Nazism. Just his free speech it may be, but in my opinion it is evil.
On the subject of free speech, I notice that there is absolutely no mention any more of “parody” by Hosking which was his last stand. “Parody” doesn’t cut it when the “parody” in his slogans is of the victims of the Holocaust “Death Camp for Cutie”, “1941 – a race odyssey”, ectera so now he says “free speech” which just means he can publish anything he wants to because that is what “free” means.
Any casual search of Hipster Hitler on Facebook would have revealed that there were two Facebook pages. One with 3,506 members and one with 67,600 members.
So I am curious as to why you chose only to comment about the smaller Facebook page with the comment – “Isn’t it interesting that Facebook – the world’s largest and most popular website – deems the content offensive, but not Red Bubble.”
After complaints were lodged, Facebook did take down the HH page, investigate then put it back up again. Which I imagine would be a normal response to any complaint on any topic. It also suggests that at this time Facebook do not deem the content offensive.
“I doubt 99.9% of people would have heard of Laskarzew and this is the real tragedy.” (per Martin Hosking)
Nope! because we’re all from Podunk University. Go Podunk!
(Mr. Hosking – you’ll remember that little phrase… the one you used to describe Americans who didn’t have a clue what Melbourne University was???) Once again, your arrogance is showing in making a statement like the one above.
“Artists from Van Gogh to Robert Mapplethorpe have been censored in the past.”
How can you liken artist – true great artists – to two people making slogans to tees??? Has he truly lost his marbles??
Van Gough was an artist , HH are racists tees. Just how can you compare them???
Martin Hosking and his defenders suffer from instant loss of all credibility when they refer to these t-shirts as “art” or “art work”. They are mass produced goods with slogans on them – the antithesis of “art” or “art works”.
There’s a big assymetry in Martin Hosking’s career. 9/11 was a call to action for him to get involved and help protect the rights of terror suspects and Palestinians and to do things to improve the image of Arabs and Muslims in the West. But he’s all of a sudden a free speech man when it comes to Neo-Nazi slogans or slogans that mock Holocaust victims or their families.
The reason the Anti-Defamation Commission was invented was to deal with the kind of “free speech” he espouses.
FaceBook did make HH take down a lot of the worst stuff. FirmSpy made them close their forums and take even more down.
“I doubt 99.9% of people would have heard of Laskarzew and this is the real tragedy. ” (attributed to Martin Hosking )
Nope! – because we all come from Podunk University” Don’t we Martin?? You should remember that phrase…. the one about Americans not understanding what Melbourne Univeristy is….. such arrogance.
Well once again, your arrogance has fallen out of your back pocket with that statement above. Go Podunk!!
OMG. Did Martin Hoskings really say this?
“To give but one example one of the T’shirts you believe should be censored is “Fear & Loathing in Laskarzew” points to an event which is barely remembered. I doubt 99.9% of people would have heard of Laskarzew and this is the real tragedy.”
Really?
I can’t believe that any human being would say something like that. It sure explains why Mr Hosking sees no bad in these designs with that kind of mentality. What difference does it make if 99.9% of people have never heard of it – it happened, and YOU know about it!!!
Try asking the decendants and relatives of the 34 Jews and 24 Poles, that got slaughtered, some as old as 75 years – if they remember? Try asking the relatives of the 1240 jews that got deported to Treblinka extermination camp if they remember.
Ask any of them which they see as the “real tragedy” – is it the vile tshirts that trivialise what happened, or the events that killed their loved ones?
Jesus Martin, what is bloody wrong with you? How can you even begin to justify saying something like that? If you had any argument at all in this issue, that statement makes it all fall down.
For anyone interested in understanding Martin Hosking’s commitment to free speech, here is a sample of censorship on RedBubble
Comments that may be mildly offensive to Nazis are deleted by RedBubble:
“Yes, RedBubble is still selling HipsterHitler’s horrible shit, and still deleting comments underneath the t shirts that offends those nazi fuckwits by criticizing them. Ah. Poor nazi babies.”
“Still selling offensive Nazi shite on this site – spoiling a great social network…”
http://matelles-art.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-redbubble-hijinks-they-are-nazi.html
But his slogans approving of the Holocaust have a different hurdle. Well, they are not illegal, he says. And the free speech is a “fundamental value”, of course, and the “issues are complex”.
I seriously hope RedBubble recovers from this plague by showing Martin Hosking the door.
And as for this statement “But arbitrary or capricious censorship is not the way. This is (perhaps ironically in this case) the path to tyranny.”
I would agree with you, but for the arbitary and capricious censorship that you and/or your admin team are applying on your website. You know about it, I know about it, your supporters brag about it, your opposers complain about it. There have been hundreds and hundreds of links posted to prove it [most of them deleted by your team], and one of these days all those [cached or saved] are going to end up in one big document, published somewhere for the world to see that tyranny. Because, that is what it is. A form of tyranny!
No doubt you will do exactly what you did when this issue was raised 6 months ago – you will remove anyone who opposes you and just wait for it to go away because people will hopefully be too afraid of reprisal for speaking up. But Martin, this time – this is not going to go away. It is just going to grow. People are not afraid of you any longer. They are free.
The questions you should have asked Martin Hosking are
Why he took on this merchandise when every other t-shirt company in the world had turned it down (as confirmed by Hipster Hitler’s own tweets and posts on Facebook that Redbubble was the only company that would take it)?
Why free speech become so important to him when it is speech on t-shirt slogans on Redbubble supporting Hitler or making fun of Holocaust victims, but he censors free speech on Redbubble criticizing Nazism or his decision to sell this merchandise?
Dear FS,
Reading about Red Bubble and its revolting t-shirts, and their just as revolting attempts to defend them, just makes me feel sick. The world is full of unpleasant things and unpleasant people selling them, I don’t need to keep getting reminded of it by you.
I echo “Anonymous” at 12:34pm. I read FS for legal gossip. Please don’t post about these awful t-shirts again unless there is some worthy legal angle. The ABL story was a rip-snorter, maybe your best post ever. But this post is a fizzer because there is no law firm involved, you admit couldn’t pin Hoskings onto AAR. Instead of searching for “Hipster Hitler” you should be searching for who Red Bubble’s new lawyers are and take them on for their low standards in client selection if you can.
So, get a law firm into this story or leave it alone.
Signed
AnonYmoose (a FS devotee)
I don’t think there is any mystery about this.
Martin Hosking has been a long-time campaigner for Arab, Muslim and Palestinian human rights, not for human rights in general. His early career was in Syria and Egypt where he learned to speak Arabic, according to his Wiki entry.
Being a Palestinian human rights campaigner puts him at odds with the State of Israel or at least most of the State of Israel’s official policy toward Palestinians.
The pillar of the modern State of Israel is the Holocaust. The Holocaust is used as one of the big justifications for Israel’s existence and as a reason for counter-measures including expansion of Israel or military campaigns by Israel against neighbours for “security reasons”. “Never again” is the catch cry.
Arabs and the Palestinians deny the supposed specialness of the Holocaust and of specialness Jewish suffering./ They resent that the Holocaust as a supposed unique event is used in part to prevent Palestinians achieving their own State.
In the Arab world the Holocaust is mocked, diminished and denied. Even Nazi ideas are popular with some and given credence by some publications. There is a fine line or even some overlap between this thinking and Neo-Nazis who have some similar ideas.
I believe the FirmSpy headline in the first post about ABL was correct. Redbubble is indeed “Spruiking Neo-Nazi Propaganda” by selling t-shirts that mock the Holocaust or support Hitler.
But this is no accident because Redbubble has been doing for months despite damaging protest and rebellion by some on the site. Now Martin Hosking says it is all about “free speech”.
Martin Hosking is doing his bit to take some of the “specialness” out of the Holocaust which is a long time project in the Arab world. He is not denying it. He is saying “free speech” allows him to reference it in ways that may be offensive to some and that are not normally acceptable in Western countries. In his comment above, he implies that the genocide in Yugoslavia is genocide too and could be equally disrespected, i.e. the Holocaust is not special.
This is why he is taking such a big stand over this issue rather than back down when he must know he causing offence to so many. This may be part of a larger project of “education” that the Holocaust and Jewish suffering are not unique and can be referenced or mocked like other suffering. Or similarly that Hitler may have been a man but was not so uniquely bad that we cannot wear a t-shirt that says “Back to the Fuhrer”.
My conclusion is that he is still a campaigner for Palestinian human rights but he is just campaigning differently now. Redbubble is a publisher of slogans that he may believe help the Palestinian cause in a roundabout way. This may be why he seems to have completely ignored what Arnold Bloch Leibler said and kept selling the same t-shirts – because they are on the other side of his battle anyway so he does not care if they are offended.
Redbubble as publisher is his “voice” in the world and he has something he wants to say.
Redbubble needs some legal advice.
Some M&A advice.
The t-shirt site famous for having the most offensive t-shirts in the world “Rotten Cotton”
http://rottencotton.com
which carries “Black Devil Doll”, “Weird Shit”, “Occult”, “True Crime”, “Horror Exploitation” and many other categories of t-shirts does not carry anything to do with Hitler and Nazism – not one iitem that touches it.
A merger with Redbubble could fill that product gap and, with Martin Hosking’s far greater commitment to free speech in t-shirts than Rotten Cotton has shown, the combined entity would have almost unlimted growth prospects into new previously off-limits categories, e.g. “Children Maimed by War” is wide open in tees right now.
C’mon this deal is an i-bankers’ and lawyers’ dream…
Once again Mr. Hosking has presumed a basic ignorance on the part of those who disagree and that his inadequate rhetoric ne circular logic will sway those who are less aware. Many “podunks” in the world understand that free speech must be exercised with responsibility and that mass market stand alone slogans hardly fall within any realistic definition of art. It is hardly surprising at this point that it is not within his nature to grasp the consequences of the choices he has made on this front for it takes a modicum of emotional intelligence and maturity to recognize that many consequences lie beyond what is legally allowed and a companies bottom line. To lower the discourse on anything that trivializes genocide, rape, abuse etc. only adds to a desensitization on the subject. I remain unimpressed by his hiding behind a blind of “free speech” while continuing to profit from such products, after all RedBubble is a private company and they choose what to produce and what not to. No doubt both Mr. Hosking and RebBubble are looking towards a profitable IPO so the rationalizations will grow and vary even more as time goes on.
Hipster Hitler still has pictures up on their Facebook Wall of
children dressed as Hitler
http://on.fb.me/kNjt27
fans dressed as Hitler
http://on.fb.me/l3wEbk
fans doing NAZI salutes
http://on.fb.me/mJILtZ
Free-speech me you all you like, but all I see is neo-Nazism and a desensitizing to Nazism. Where does this all stop? It probably won’t stop but it should be declared for what it is: an attempt at the revival of the acceptability of Nazism under the guise of a bit of fun. Completely different from Mel Brooks or Charlie Chaplin mocked Nazism.
The Redbubble t-shirts are even worse. If Redbubble can say its just free speech to sell Back to the Fuhrer t-shirts, Redbubble is hitching its wagon to neo-Nazism with all the consequences for it as a business that follow.
Someone should tell this Hosking character to shut his mouth. Every time he opens it he cannot help but announce his self-importance and ignorance at the same time. He’s one of the 0.1% who understands the significance of a particular town and this is the “real tragedy” and so he is going to sell t-shirts making money out of a massacre there. Who does he think he is to offer that shoddy explanation in a public forum.
He seems also completely ignorant of the workings of the ADC. They talk to people like him because of complaints that they have received. It is not some honour bestowed on him as an important person.
When I saw the headline “Professional Responsibility” I thought this post was going to be about RedBubble’s new lawyers. I was looking forward to reading FS making mincemeat of the unfortunate firm that had decided to defend Redbubble. But I’m bitterly disappointed with the pap in this post which is mostly just a rehash. I want my money back!
Bloody awful Redbubble, just awful. Your merchandise stinks.
There are few times in my life where I can say I have been closely associated with something really wrong crossing into evil. RedBubble is one of those things. Thousands of posts and threads have been deleted very much in “kneejerk reaction” if criticizing or complaining RedBubble’s decision to sell t-shirts that make money out of genocide. Many people have been banned or just quitely left the site. Selling Nazi slogans has been the biggest single issue by a mile on RedBubble over recent months. Martin has decided he is just going to do it and bugger the consequences. I’m left speechless by him saying “the critical importance we attach to freedom of expression”. He only attaches importance to it for his Nazi related t-shirts and cuts it in an instant when people try to oppose him doing it. I hope that (as a poster referred to above) someone can put in one place all the screenshots and cahes and other evidence that show his utter humbug by taking refuge in “free speech” for these t-shirts. It makes me so angry that the community that was built up by the goodwill of so many people over the past years is now being used by him to spread messages of hate. It’s deeply deeply unpleasant stuff and he is hell-bent on promoting it.
Martin Hosking uses grand terms – he compares cheap Hipster Hitler t-shirts with the timeless artworks of Van Gogh and Mapplethorpe, he throws about the term “freedom of speech”, as though a teenager’s t-shirt slogan could be considered in the same light as Martin Luther King or Mandela. An overblown use of language to justify a continued support of Hipster Hitler merchandise, in the face of overwhelming opposition. Why? one might ask, why would this CEO fight tooth and nail to keep Hipster Hitler products on sale, despite the obvious PR damage to his company? Why would he compare these T-shirts to the great artists of our time, to the great campaigners of free speech? One has only to cast an eye over the t-shirts to see that, even without taking the offensive slogans into account, they are hardly deserving of such a defense. The only answers that present themselves are (a) greed, or (b) antisemitism. Let’s hope for (a).
The Nazi party patch was a Swastika on white inside a Red Bubble
http://www.ioffer.com/i/ww2-nazi-party-patch-d-a-p-196009944?source=eisi
Martin Hosking would probably say this is just coincidence, and if this turned out to be wrong, assert it’s just free speech to put his Neo-Nazi slogans on t-shirts inside his Red Bubble.
If “Back to the Fuhrer” is fine according to Hosking, what are his limits to free speech other than what is illegal (e.g. because it incites violence). “Good old Uncle Adolf” could find a place in his range of t-shirts. All-out Holocaust denial is not illegal in Australia either, so that sort of thing could be on tees by his standards. A Swastika too is, after all, just 3,000 year old Sanskrit symbol of power that is not illegal in Australia.
The problem with using “illegal” as the test, is that long before you get to illegal you are beyond offensive and into the territory of poisonous and utterly disreputable.
There are legitimate concerns for Palestinian human rights – lets not confuse the two issues. Being pro-nazi does not equate to being pro-palestinian.
You make some grandiose statements about arab world views. These kind of statements will only weaken our fight to ban the HH material.
The term “illegal” as used by Mr Hosking, is thrown around to suit his needs, as is the term “Freedom of Speech”.
If Mr Hosking is such a stringent beleiver in – if it’s not illegal, then people have a right to express it – then how come the works of Bill Henson, where he protrays young teenagers in nude, or provocative poses would not be permitted into Redbubble. Art of nude or semi nude children are against Redbubble’s guidelines on acceptable content [this I am glad of], yet they are widely accepted as art throughout the world and have been for decades.
Bill Hensons work was pulled from a gallery, bit later his work was deemed to be not illegal.
M Hosking is prepared to give two kids freedom to add offensive slogans to shirts because the designs are not illegal, yet Henson would not be afforded such freedoms on his site, depsite the fact that his photographs are not ilegal either. Martin Hosking’s guidelines dictate that Hensons work would be innparopriate for Redbubble.
I put it to you that RB’s guidelines have been finely “tuned”, so that M Hosking can manipulate the content on his site to his own agendas. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech, if it did, M Hosking would allow ALL content that isn’t illegal, bar none. If he values freedom of speech so highly, he categorically – would not – pick and choose, which freedoms can or can’t get through his door. But he does..
I once posed the Henson/Freedom of expression question to M Hosking. It was stated that nude children images would not be permitted onto Redbubble – because it would fall outside of their guidelines. I wanted to know why, if the works were not illegal. That second question was not answered, and once agin the guidelines were used in a defense to disallow nude or semi nude children images.
I assume that nude or semi nude children art would have the massive majority of Redbubble members up in arms, and that Martin knows this. Ask yourselves why RB are cleaning up inappropriate tshirts for kids at such a frenzied rate at the moment to get that one.
It seems that if kids are invovled in any way, M Hosking will apply his guidelines and stamp all over freedom of speech, because the consequences to his business would be detrimental if he didn’t.
Well what about the childen of Auschwitz at the hands of Mengele? Did he forget about them?
I’m tired of Hosking’s phoney explanations. Enough protest on the internet about it. These t-shirts are not just hypothetical things. T-shirts are mobile billboards. He’s filling the world with them.
What about Hosking and any of the people supporting him put on one of their “Back to the Fuhrer” t-shirts, and all rally together on the Princes Bridge overlooking the Yarra River. I’ll put on some sunglasses and hat and a drive a 1974 Dodge Monaco Bluesmobile straight at the lot of them.
Red Bubble merger with Rotten Cotten is an inspired idea!! How do I get some of the stock before the IPO?
All we need is a name…Rotten Bubble or Bubble Rot both have a nice rings
In all seriousness, embracing this Nazi material on t-shirts and defending it as “free speech” because it’s not illegal (!!) will be business suicide for Red Bubble as a serious business and serious professionals will run a mile from advising it. Having made a name for itself, Red Bubble or Rotten Bubble may as well offer all sorts of other distasteful and unpleasant stuff.
From a detached perspective, and based on the limited amount of information available to the outside observer, an anti-Zionist agenda would certainly seem to be one plausible explanation for the redbubble stance: playing Devil’s Advocate, one could easily see where a human being who has spent time championing Palestinian rights might well come to sympathise with those oppressed by the Zionist regime. One who has seen first-hand the suffering and terror imposed upon innocent people in the name of ‘Israel’ might well develop a cavalier or even supportive attitude towards the Hitler Hipster material. If this is the case with Martin Hoskins, perhaps this whole saga has reached a point in its narrative where its chief protagonist might stand a little more foursquare behind his actual passions rather than serving up a diluted, politically correct version of his feelings and convictions.
The only other hypothesis presented so far, ‘championing freedom of speech’ aside, is greed. I’ve just done the maths based on the figures quoted by the HH creators above. If we assume that their reported earnings are accurate then at £1.26 per t-shirt profit to the designer, redbubble are currently making £9174 per month, or £110,000 per year, from Hitler Hipster tees. Compared to the trifling amounts generated for them by the vast majority of redbubble artists (and I include myself in their number) that’s a pretty significant haul. From a business stance, those figures might well have the power to engender a certain degree of sympathy for the designers concerned…?
The ‘freedom of speech’ card doesn’t bear up well to scrutiny in light of the proven cases of repression of dissident voices on redbubble. I say this in a spirit of encouragement to come clean, not in a judgemental manner. I would certainly welcome a more frank account rather than the clumsy attempts at damage-control spin we are currently seeing…
I disagree with the legal eagles grizzling about the lack of edible legal meat in post. In fact I cannot think of the last time that a law firm publicly sacked a client and condemned its products like ABL did. So it’s a famous letter in Australian legal history. Following the fortunes of ABL’s most famous ex-client are very much in FirmSpy’s mandate as the question is begged as to who will offer them legal services.
However, I do make one demand of FirmSpy. Next time you post on this company and its adventures, please, I beg of you, put your wizardry to work and make a Downfall YouTube clip starring the ex-client’s CEO.
Playing the Devil’s Advocate here, would we have seen a similar response if the offended group in question / subject matter were Sikhs, Hindus, Catholics or Muslims?
I know I am not the first to make this point but I choked when I read Martin Hosking using free speech as his defence for what he is doing given how he rapidly censors anything he personally disapproves of on RedBubble. His tight censorship on RedBubble makes what he is doing with the Hitler tees much worse: it shows that he strongly approves of the tees and their slogans.
I fail to understand why some people need to fight bigotry with another from. Declaring Mr Hosking’s support for Palestinian rights as a reason for his promotion of anti semitic and pro nazi material is an argument that makes this whole debate lose its credibility.
I and many other people are supporters of Palestinian rights but are also opponents of anti semitism. There are many Jewish people who have openly supported the rights of Palestinians and fought anti semitism.
There are people from all religions who are holocaust deniers, so don’t taint one group with that brush, extrapolate the argument to Christians, Muslims and Hindus or better yet, deal with the issue at hand.
I have not opposed and made my voice heard on the issues of HH, Redbubble, Nazism and anti semitism to be lumped with people who are anti arabic or bigoted towards another group of people!!!
@ Six Minutes
Nazism has a particularly powerful resonance. How would you offend other groups with such potency as Nazism offends Jewish people (and rightly many others).
“Playing the Devil’s Advocate here, would we have seen a similar response if the offended group in question / subject matter were Sikhs, Hindus, Catholics or Muslims?”
Absolutely!
In fact, there was some content that related to Muslims on Redbubble a little while ago, and it was promptly removed after protests from members. It was not illegal, but ot was deemed by Redbubble as being potentially offensive to people of Muslim faith.
Yet now, M Hosking says of this HH work “Some art will offend people, art is like that.”
So it begs the question. Why does Redbubble allow work that can offend jews, but not muslims?
So these are supposed to be parody too?! Disgusting.
http://www.redbubble.com/products/configure/6869804-kids-clothes
http://www.redbubble.com/products/configure/6869770-kids-clothes
http://www.redbubble.com/products/configure/3666044-kids-clothes
http://www.redbubble.com/products/configure/4107493-kids-clothes
http://www.redbubble.com/products/configure/6925544-kids-clothes
http://www.redbubble.com/products/configure/6899102-kids-clothes
This is just a small percent of what is available. There is even a swastika series for babies……..
Aconex seem to be defending Hosking by saying he is “respected”
http://www.extranetevolution.com/2011/06/aconex-chairman-in-hitler-t-shirt-row/
Dear Mr Firmspy
Please can you confirm for us why your site was temporarily suspended. There have been some really elaborate suggestions made on Redbubble as to why, and I thought it would be nice for your readers to find out the reason. One suggests that youre website host received a very important legal letter that has scared the b’jeezus out of the them, and that letter was sent by ABL.
Any clarification on this?
Just to clarify – accounts have been closed down at Redbubble because people have gone against the PNP (play nice policy), and for no other reason.
Some former members have re joined RB to spread their hate and spite …… that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still they continue.
I believe Mr. Hoskings is taking the correct path, he is in discussion with the people who will be able to give the best answer to the question.
Firmspy may need to consider why hundreds of thousands have chosen to stay at Redbubble, and why a very small amount have chosen to leave.
I also reported the Muslim jokes which J Langford speaks of. They were removed quite promptly.( Even though they were just jokes, puns and parody). On Redbubble, you can get away with anything as long you first print it on a t-shirt!
Still waiting to hear which law firm/lawyer has been stupid enough to take on RedBubble and Hosking as a client after their spectacular and totally appropriate dumping by ABL…..
Or is there no ‘spy’ brave enough to leak this fascinating information?
@ Alison Johnston
“Some former members have re joined RB to spread their hate and spite …… that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still they continue.”
How did you come by this information? How do you know that new accounts belong to members who have left? Did Redbubble confirm these details for you? Or is it assumption on your part? Is your statement fact, or guesswork?
Alison Johnston’s misinformation is easy to point out. She is quick to attack and belittle any member who speaks out against RedBubble, Martin Hosking or Hipster Hitler and label them as a ‘coward’, ‘sockpuppet’, or other childish names. Meanwhile, she doesn’t address the content or issues these members speak out against.
It is interesting that she keeps repeating that accounts and comments are only deleted when they go against the Play Nice Policy when she herself does not play nice at all, yet her comments and account seem to remain untouched.
I guess only when the opposition does not ‘play nice’ does the rule apply.
She has blindly pledged her allegiance to RedBubble and in her mind it can do no wrong. Baby clothing with images of masturbation, swastikas, and sexual innuendo don’t seem to bother her since RedBubble allows it…that doesn’t look very educated or mature, does it?!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/03/lawyers_dump_redbubble_over_hitlerhipsters/
@Alison
“Just to clarify – accounts have been closed down at Redbubble because people have gone against the PNP (play nice policy), and for no other reason. ”
SOME accounts have been closed due to the reason you’ve stated, others have been suspended when people have adhered to the guidelines but have simply chosen to ask questions or provide information about the issues being debated, and there are also those members, who, due to prefering to stand by their principles, who have chosen to leave.
“Some former members have re joined RB to spread their hate and spite …… that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still they continue.”
This is partially true, but the immaturity exists on BOTH sides of the fence…
“I believe Mr. Hoskings is taking the correct path, he is in discussion with the people who will be able to give the best answer to the question.”
Mr Hoskings has only taken this path because members have expressed their disgust with the relevant organisation and he has been ‘told’ to enter into a discussion in order to find a way to resolve very legitimate concerns.
“Firmspy may need to consider why hundreds of thousands have chosen to stay at Redbubble, and why a very small amount have chosen to leave.”
Many members are not aware of the current issues facing redbubble, due to management, censorship methods preventing information being made public, I was suspended for doing nothing more than attempting to provide information to members about the children’s clothing problem, no names were mentioned, nor links to members made to them.
Please don’t speak as if you are speaking for ALL members Alison, even if we do share the same name.
Far more progress would be made if people dropped the egos and either supported the Causes they are fighting for, or just carried on with their artwork.
The solution to that is easy, just keep out of the damn forums at redbubble unless you thrive on the drama.
I left the facebook group because more links were pertaining to forum posts were being posted than to informative articles.
People tend to forget that these issues aren’t supposed to be about US…
“Firmspy may need to consider why hundreds of thousands have chosen to stay at Redbubble, and why a very small amount have chosen to leave.”
Hundreds of thousands have chosen to stay on Red Bubble:
- does that make the issue any less important?
- are they even aware of the content in question? (RB have done a good job of censoring the protests)
It isn’t a small handful of artists who have protested this. I’ve read between 100 and 200 farewell journals in the past month, and seen other artists ‘disappear’ from the site without a word. And these are some of Red Bubbles most respected, talented and well known artists.
It’s no surprise that some of the people who bullied and ridiculed the protestors are also starting to seek out other art sites – the talent has been drained from Red Bubble.
And Allison, just to clarify, RB will justify their suspensions any way they please – but know that these PNP rules are not consistent or fair.
Speaking of mature, what’s your opinion of the “poem” – that was set to the theme “Teddy bears picnic” – which ridiculed, belittled and bullied the people who raised their concerns to red bubble? This was sent out within 2 days in an attempt to quash the protest, and make us look like trouble makers. And the other journal that was released on the same day by a very prominent figure at RB, who asked the protestors to “leave, just leave”, while attempting to explain that the comic was for teenagers, and anyone above the age of 20 just wouldn’t “get it”. You think thats mature? No wonder why people left RB in droves after journals like that came out.
“Firmspy may need to consider why hundreds of thousands have chosen to stay at Redbubble, and why a very small amount have chosen to leave.”
I would suggest that this could have something to do with the fact that everytime anyone raises the issue on Redbubble, it is promptly removed. The hundreds of thousands of “accounts” [not ncessessarily all realating to unique people] possibly do not know about the issue.
It is also very likely that those that do, have no opinion either way. Those who remain silent are exactly that – silent. It is ethically incorrect to use broad assumption in an attempt to sway a debate. Those who have not expressed an opinion on this issue should not be used to the advantage of either side to further their opinion. Those who attempt to do this, just create a very obvious looking bias to their cause.
@ Alison Johnston
“Some former members have re joined RB to spread their hate and spite …… that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still they continue.”
How did you come by this information? How do you know that new accounts belong to members who have left? Did Redbubble confirm these details for you? Or is it assumption on your part? Is your statement fact, or guesswork?
Do you work for Redbubble? If not, how can you obtain information about what lies behind any account, whether old or new?
“Some former members have re joined RB to spread their hate and spite …… that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still they continue.”
I witnessed you jumping into a thread, calling or likening a friend of mine, who was opposing some materials on Redbubble, to that of a “terrorist”.
Another friend of hers reported you, and a few people took screen shots of your wild and defamatory accusation.
Last time I checked, a basic well acknowledged rule of the PNP, is no attacking others, including no name calling.
(BTW – Where was the voluntary RB journal/forum thread police then? That attack protesters journals?)
Your self driven, hypocritical, egotistical banter should be silenced, but Redbubble let’s you carry on.
Why Redbubble? Do you approve of this? This follows your “Play Nice Policy”? Is there a different PNP for protesters vs defenders of RB?
I would like to ask you Alison – were there any repercussions for your “hate and spite that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still you continue.”
Have you apologized to the person you likened to a “terrorist”?
And I agree with the above poster regarding the spiteful “poems” and journals tagged with “leave, just leave”, written by prominent RB figures.
Talk about self righteous arrogance.
The best of Redbubble is gone – they left because of the disgusting materials (that are not “art”), and to get away from this kind of harassment – they don’t want your company, so don’t follow us. We’ve had enough of your bullying and harassment.
“Birds of a feather” right. You’ve already driven many great artists from your beloved site, so now RB is yours, stay there and keep you self righteous arrogant banter to yourselves.
I personally don;t give a toss about how many members have left Redbubble, or how many have stayed…..
Let’s just stick to the facts….
The fact that The ADC is talking to mr Hosking speaks volumes; if the HH content wouldn;t be hightly questionable they would NOT be talking to him.
The fact that the ADC thinks there are valid reasons to look into this, gives the people who do have issues with the designs a legitimate reason to voice their concerns.
@Tim, no they’re not parody. They are tagged as Hindu and in a decorative, Hindu form.
@Julie “Ask yourselves why RB are cleaning up inappropriate tshirts for kids at such a frenzied rate at the moment to get that one.”
Because people complained, the t-shirts were reviewed through the same process as the HH merchandise and found wanting. There are thousands of t shirt designs on red bubble, each one being checked individually. Some have innocuous images but are tagged with swear words. It will no doubt take a while to get them all sorted out.
Anybody fancy chasing Zazzle’s lawyers over their Che Guevara series?
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/che+guevara+tshirts
or maybe Chairman Mao?
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/mao+tshirts
or even Kim Jong Il
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/kim+jong+il+tshirts
All well-known supporters of free speech and human rights.
Maybe HH should re-brand and go for a Hipster Che and all would be right in the world?
My hats to FirmSpy for being brave enough to cover this story. You will soon hear many reports that the Hipster Hitler t-shirts have been depublished from Redbubble. There is no certainty that they have been removed – just that they are depublished. Martin Hosking may very well decide to sell them on behalf of HH “under the table” I’m sure with a little bit of “code” wrangling, it could be done. Too bad he couldn’t do a little bit of code wrangling and remove the disgusting baby t-shirts also.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214001858631527&set=a.111096488922065.9523.100000651420214&type=1&ref=nf
_I would like to ask you Alison – were there any repercussions for your “hate and spite that doesn’t look very educated or mature, but still you continue.”_
Alison Johnston has openly admitted in the Redbubble forums that she has already been suspended a while aog [within 6 months]. She is currently on probation if that is the case, so her likneing another member to a terrorist should of course, as per guidelines, earned her a site ban.
I will eat my hat if that ever happens.
@ Anon
“Anybody fancy chasing Zazzle’s lawyers over their Che Guevara series?”
Rome wasn’t built in a day. One step at a time.
Inappropriate content on other sites will also be complained about, in due course.
“And I agree with the above poster regarding the spiteful “poems” and journals tagged with “leave, just leave”, written by prominent RB figures.”
So do I agree. The poem and the inappropriate tagging by Mel B [leave, just leave], certainly didn’t do RB or their supporters any favours, it just pissed people off.
I am still waiting to see if Alison will confirm for us, if she works for Redbubble or not, and how she can obtain information behind Redbubble accounts if she does not. I wonder why she has not addressed these important questions?
What do the supporters of Hipster Hitler and Redbubble have to say now?
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/dont-mention-the-war-artists-reminded-that-hitlers-no-joke-20110604-1fmdf.html
A huge thank you to FirmSpy for initially publishing this story, being a major contributor to revealing the truth and consequently to your assistance in getting the neo Nazi shirts removed from Redbubble.
My understanding is that the HH work has been removed pending the outcome of RB’s discussions with various outside groups. While i am glad to hear that they can no longer be seen i’m sorry that seven months of member objections took so long to be heard and then only through the auspices of outside organizations. For those who remain at RB i hope that the desired outcome is reached but after so long and so much censorship of members and account deletions i think too much damage has been done. Forgive me but the depublishing action comes across as lacking any genuine sincerity and i remain doubtful that the work in question will not re=appear at some later date.
Redbubble, or Martin was ‘forced’ to remove the shirts. People should be thanking the ADC for intervening, not thanking RB for removing them.
Had the ADC not intervened, and had there been no press about this, he’d still be selling them, that is obvious.
Has everyone seen this copy and paste interview by hipster hitler in Redbubble?
http://www.redbubble.com/people/hipsterhitler/journal/7191422-hipster-hitler-an-interview
People are counting chickens very early. To my knowledge, this is not yet over. The work has for now, been removed from Redbubble, but the accompanying statement provided by M Hosking on Redbubble’s forum is not conclusive of any definite outcome.
“Pending final outcome of our discussions with a range of organisations (including the Anti-Defamation Commission) we have decided to moderate a range of controversial work on the site related to portrayals of Hitler, the Holocaust and related events.”
Redbubble are still fighting to keep the products. and Hipster Hitler have stated on their website that their T-shirt shop is closed for now, but will be back up as soon as possible.
Things are still very much up in the air.
I for one am glad to see that Mr Hosking is now taking this approach. It matters not that it took 6 months, or that members had to leave or be banned etc [most of us knew the fight would be hard, and that we would have to make sacrifices in the name of what is right], or that outside media had to force this issue. What matters is – he is now doing something to address this at last.
I won’t count chickens yet, but I do feel positive that a solution will be found in the end.
I think it is no clear that Alsion Johnston either does not wish to answer the question as to whether she works for Rebubble or not, and how she can obtain information behind Redbubble accounts, if indeed she can, and is not just guessing. Or she is not around to answer the question.
As this question relates to serious implications about member security on Redbubble, perhaps Redbubble would be kind enough to answer those questions for us instead. I think Redbubble members reading here deserve to know if their identiy is being compromised by some security flaw on Redbubble that they are not aware of.
To Redbubble
Is it possible that Alison Johsnton, or any other RB member, can obtain details [ip address, whether they hold other accounts, past or present etc] about the person who lies behind a Redbubble account, whether that account be old or new?
The question relating to member security and whether any RB member can obtain information about other Redbubble accounts, has now been asked in the Redbubble support database. I have it on authority from Mr Hosking himself that All queries asubmitted to their support system are acknowledged and answered [in an earlier message he sent me].
Hopefully they will respond to this question soon, as it is important to many members I fel.
http://support.redbubble.com/discussions/questions/17245-question
@Anon
1. They’re not all Hindu swastikas.
2. Do you carry tags with you when you buy a shirt? No.
3. Even if some of them are Hindu, do you think most people will see and interpret them as Hindu when they see the stand alone swastikas printed on baby clothing. No.
4. It doesn’t matter if the swastikas are Hindu or not. What matters is what most people will think it represents when they see it on a shirt. These shirts should be removed immediately, especially in light of the other circumstances involving RedBubble and Mr. Hosking.
@Julie Langford
There is no smoking gun.
No conspiracy theories, no breaches of privacy or security flaws that identify the persons behind the fake accounts that spammed Red Bubble in recent weeks.
The source of information you seek can be found within information openly published on multiple sites by members of the protest group itself. All you need to do is look with your eyes wide open and a mind less clouded by the desire to prove others deserve your wrath.
Mr Hosking is taking advice and positive action on all issues raised by his members. Perhaps it’s time to put down the pitchforks and give everyone a rest?
Seems people are trying to cover their butts now? Trying to retract their support of hipster hitler possibly?
The “copy and paste interview” posted by hipster hitler in Redbubble has been deleted.
No worries, it can still be read here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Xzt3jzcLVFsJ:www.redbubble.com/people/hipsterhitler/journal/7191422-hipster-hitler-an-interview+hipster+hitler+interview&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&source=www.google.ca
Words fail me, that Martin Hosking would fight so hard to keep these T-shirts on his website till the bitter end. They clearly mock victims of the holocaust, and his failure to either understand this or admit to this, leaves one to wonder what exactly is he thinking?
There were numerous members from his art site who protested for over 7 months to get these shirts off the site. He deduced and undermined these members by addressing them as “a vocal minority (or mob) leaving in ‘tens’”. Disrespect toward the same highly talented and well known members whom helped his site be as popular as it is today.
Martin Hosking – I think many people would like to know if you will be offering an apology to those members who protested the hipster hitler shirts from day one, whom you referred to as ‘a vocal minority and mob, who are leaving in tens’. As if they are so insignificant and uncivil.
Why don’t we take a trip down memory lane on Hosking’s long standing defense of Hipster Hitler, as well as all those who supported Hipster Hitler and Martin Hosking.
Martin’s journal about “Free Speech”:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4wPNK6DwZncJ:www.redbubble.com/people/pilgrim/journal/6436105-redbubble-and-free-speech+redbubble+and+free+speech+pilgrim&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&source=www.google.ca
Hipster Hitler’s ‘copy and paste’ interview posted in his Redbubble journal:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Xzt3jzcLVFsJ:www.redbubble.com/people/hipsterhitler/journal/7191422-hipster-hitler-an-interview+hipster+hitler+redbubble+interview&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&source=www.google.ca
Martin Hosking- Do you also include the ADC and other Jewish organizations that investigated you as ‘a vocal minority or mob’?
Well, well, what a surprise ….. (not!)
The CACHED version of Hipster Hitler’s interview has now been deleted!
Well done you! Why don’t you publicly retract your support for Hipster Hitler rather than hide behind polite rhetoric and bs.
Cowards!
If anyone is interested in reading about why I decided send a letter to the media, and The Australian Family Association, in regards to serial killers faces adorning baby wear, I have done a write up in my blog about it.
“Blowing the Whistle on Redbubble’s Serial Killer Baby Wear”
http://tatumwulff.blogspot.com/2011/06/blowing-whistle-on-redbubbles-serial.html
It’s a shame Redbubble had to be pressured into taking action regarding both the Hipster Hitler shirts, and in regards to the adult only content on baby wear.
I hope the Redbubble community spirit will be restored, but I will never return to that site, not after the way I and other protesters were treated.
Thank you again FirmSpy, for publishing your informative articles. You’ve done a good thing, and proved to play an important role not only in exposing the truth behind what was being endorsed on Redbubble, but also served to allow people to speak their minds without censorship.
Kind Regards,
Tatum Wulff
(I have linked both of your articles in my blog.)